The Justin Wayne Podcast: Episode 4 – “Game Tactics vs Perceived Value”
Welcome to our new podcast. I personally enjoyed this episode because me and the guest speaker, John Atlas, think alike. Here’s his background for those who don’t know. John Atlas is the “methodical scientist” – a Harvard and MIT grad, leader at the top management consultant firm in the world. He has had an extensive background in hypnotherapy field and has dealt with medical patients.
We stumbled upon each other a few years back while I was coaching day game. I saw him randomly approached a 9/10 and saw how he hooked her in. Just so you guys know, John Atlas is not considered good-looking at all. Yet, I could tell he had an uncanny social ability that enabled him to generate attraction despite him being a 4-5 at most. He was fascinated with my abilities at that time as well. I showed him what I do my Domino Effect. He opened up my eyes to other aspects of social dynamics that has helped me to get girls out of my league from the hardest form of approach.
Examples of VALUE to women:
Height, Looks, Money, Stereotype, Archetype, Relative Social Value, Fame, and more…
Examples of TACTICS used on women:
Good energy, social competence, entertainment, flirting, playfulness, charming abilities, timing and more…
HERE IS A BRIEF REVIEW OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
– Who does “pick-up” work for?
– How to do you determine your attractive rating from 1 – 10?
– if you are borderline average (5/10) can game help you get hot women CONSISTENTLY?
– how the old dating community created this this belief of getting 9’s and 10’s into everyone’s mind. This messed up men’s reality where even if he was a ‘4’ he would still criticize a ‘7’ for not being a ’10’.
– The “no defect” guy.. by the 25 minute mark
– The three categories of value. 1) Universal Value 2) Context-Dependent Value 3) Specific Value
36 responses to “The Justin Wayne Podcast: Episode 4 – “Game Tactics vs Perceived Value””
Justin, this is deep. I was having a similar conversation recently. You actually helped me to put things into perspective. We need more PodCasts like this that explains how reality is.
We will switch things up. SOmetimes it will be informative, other times for entertainment.
i love this post, i learn a lot just from listening to it. i think you guys are right on the topic of using tactics and building value .. using tactics includes whats u say and how u flirt and your perceived value can only be sensed and not heard, correct me if im wrong, but it is felt through your vibe, the emotions she gets from talking and what kind of person she view you as based on that.. your overall altitude.
ps ..i think the pua you guys are talking about is Vince Kelvin right? hahahahaha..he does look a lot like bob Dylan
[[ correct me if im wrong, but it is felt through your vibe, the emotions she gets from talking and what kind of person she view you as based on that.. your overall altitude.]]
— Hey Cam, Tactics can help you generate short term things that can really help you dramatically in certain situations like stranger approach where her perceived value of you is lower than it really is. However, Value has longer term value such as money, you being close with her family and friends etc.
I always appreciate your analytical/scientific approach to game and that you “leave your hypothesis open” as a true scientist does. However, I’m not sure if you are selling the power of tactics or “game” short. During the podcast your guest Atlast somewhat acknowledged the usefulness of tactics but seemed to fall short of fully endorsing or stressing its efficacy. Also, it seems as though you didn’t defend the tactics/game side, which you mainly teach and is your area of expertise (If I’m correct), as much as I would have expected you to.
I personally have a good friend who was a dating instructor for one of the top companies. He’s met Mystery, Style, Matador
and some other dating “gurus.” He’s reached a few key conclusions after YEARS of practicing game:
1) a large portion of the so-called Gurus are outright weirdos, who are unable to have a normal person to person conversation with people. I think you’ve covered before the problem with stranger approaching and how it is simply unnatural negative feedback for your mind to be rejected over and over again. In tribal society, for which we are hardwired for, this did not happen, and if it did there could be mortal consequences. The weirdo aspect of these people could be a byproduct of this or the fact that they have become completely robotic, comprising all integrity “losing” their true self.
2) 90% of tactics/game that is taught is bulshit. Game is bullshit. The #1 thing that works is $$$, $$$, and more $$$. He only believes in “value” in the sense that it was used in this podcast. He doesn’t believe in game anymore. Perhaps as 10% of closing the deal w/ girls is game.
Now while I will concede that “value” can trump all- no matter how strong your game, (For example, no matter how strong my game is, if I’m gaming a girl and Brad Pitt or the President of the United States comes along, we know who she’s choosing..) game/tactics works more than is described. “Value” based game is soooOO ugly, sloppy and, most times has much in common with ho/trick mentality in that you’re relying on $$$, material wealth, social status. Game has virtue. I’d sat game 50%, value 50% is about right.
How do I know this?
Despite my friend declaring that 90% of game is bullshit and only $$$ closes the deal, he is a BEAST when it comes to cold approaching. Ironically, HE disproves the idea that game is bullshit.
Also, I’ve been following you, Krauser, Yad, Sasha, and Simple Pickup and the tactics that you’ve discussed have accelerated my game tremendously. I haven’t trained with you in person so I don’t fully know the domino effect but as you describe it in your video it seems to be the most logical out of all tactics with teh strss on romantic connection. Game>>>Value any day
BTW: the PUA that is being talked about is Vince Kelvin, (if you haven’t figured it out) and he is already widely reputed to be a hack as far as game goes. Google a picture of Bob Dylan followed by Vince Kelvin and it will immediately become apparent to you.
[[Also, it seems as though you didn’t defend the tactics/game side, which you mainly teach and is your area of expertise (If I’m correct), as much as I would have expected you to.]]
— Good Point. I was doing more listening. Of course I believe in tactics. That’s how I am able to get women “out of my league” without social circle or fame. However, we are just saying that value will makes using tactics much easier. The more value you have, the less tactics that you will need and visa versa. However, listening to this again, I took more of a passive route with the tactics.. However, there is a part 2 🙂
[[I think you’ve covered before the problem with stranger approaching and how it is simply unnatural negative feedback for your mind to be rejected over and over again.]]
— Sure, it can be mentally unhealthy for many people at different points in their life.. that is why people need ‘balance’. Meet women in situations where you have equal or even higher value in social circles or online. Where you do not have to chase. Also, stranger approaching is excellent for developing and enhancing your social skills and intelligence. If you take what you learn in stranger approaching and re-apply it in easier settings, you will definitely be at an advantage. I honestly have only been meeting women via random stranger approach. However, I have girls in my life that I am happy with so that makes up for me having to have a social circle.
[[ ’d sat game 50%, value 50% is about right.]]
— It relative… If your perceived value is high, let’s say 80%, then you only need 20% tactics. However, if your perceived value to the woman is 30%, you will need 70% of tactics to get a chance.
Since my perceived value is rather low while approaching them on the street, being a different race, not seem fitting the ‘long term’ boyfriend archetype to brag to their friends, stereotyped to not have much money… I have to use a decent amount of tactics for many of the girls that I sleep with from random approaching.
[[he tactics that you’ve discussed have accelerated my game tremendously. I haven’t trained with you in person so I don’t fully know the domino effect but as you describe it in your video it seems to be the most logical out of all tactics with the stress on romantic connection. Game>>>Value any day]]
— I’m glad you are taking the logical route. I dislike it when people talk keeping everything simple. Well, anything ‘worthwhile’ is not simple. If we look at making a car that has great usage; cars are complex and took a long time to perfect. Same thing in the medical field. LOGIC trumps all. People may criticize about making things complicated, however, the deeper you understand it, the more you can apply it. This is what I used, LOGIC and I am constantly refining my theories, and that’s how I increase my success rates. I am glad that this way of thinking is helping you to improve.
Jusin you say “game” to “value” ratio should be relative however Paul Janka has very high value (looks, sterotype, height, fashion) so lets say around 80% in value so how come when he put relative effort (little investment) in game he scores such flaky results, while you with little value score such consistent results
I was speaking to Paul Janka on skype recently, cool guy. Paul Janka’s game is for one particular situation; where you have very limited time (like 1 minute). Then you strive for number after stating direct intent. Naturally, women will flake due to the short time with little-to-no connection. Let’s say a guy is a 10 and he approaches an 8. Firstly, by being a stranger(no connection) who looses around 2points. Just by being the pursuer, he looses around 1 point.(sometimes more). so he is already a 7 to the girl who is an 8. Also, if he can not connect with her well due to lack of time, he looses another point. Therefor, in that situation, the girl perceives his OVERALL VALUE to be a 6 vs her being an 8. Hence, she feels like it’s not really worth it if she is 2 full points higher than him in her collective value assessment.
In my situation, it is totally different. Let’s I am a 6, and I see a girl who is an 9. By me being a stranger I lose 2 points. I’m a 4 now. Then by me being pursuer, I loose another point, where I am a 3. So if I get a number and leave at this time. It is a flake or no number at all. However, by me continuing and focusing on basic comfort, I can gain about 2 points which bring me back to a 5. Also, by using tactics and crawling good emotions with her in real time i can get about one or 2 points higher which takes me to a 7(higher than my original). Assuming im talking to her for about 20 minutes now. I can start flirting with her progressively since I already have basic social comfort. After flirting and getting her to invest while I have momentum… I I can gain another 2 points… where by this time I can solidify the romantic connection. My value to her is a 9 or 10. SHe then sees past everything since we have a boyfriend a girlfriend feel on the same day if hanging for 30 minutes. SHe feels like it’s serendipity. IN the short run, it’s a strong driver. After getting the romantic connection… SHe will definitely call me back, then show up on the date with no resistance, then go to me, and then allows sex to happen very easily.
This is the ideal situation of what im doing. However, SOmetimes there are variations. For example, if I do not game her properly I may get a Maybe girl and meet her the next day, but then i may still have a struggle to close the deal due to having a slightly weak connection form day 1. But in General, if The Domino Effect is executed well on first day. The particular girls is sure to want you just as much as you want her, in many cases, MORE.
I agree with Grandpa. Justin, you seem NOT to be defending on what your a GENIUS at which is TACTICS!
You called yourself a 5-6 in attractive VALUE before in another podcast. I agree with that. Ironically, the girls you get from street are not only out of your league, but there are not into your stereotype in general. I mostly see girls like them with handsome white guys.
YOUR GAME IS TACTIC BASED AND YOU PULL THOSE HOT CHICKS who are not generally into your stereotype.
Justin, that is AMAZING!
The Point is, YOUR DOMINO EFFECT is a scientific structure and u use TACTICS. You get laid with hot girls from TACTICS. YOur value is not that high since you are a stranger on the street and you are average looking at best.
SO Justin, we think you need to give tactics more credit because that is what get YOU results.
See…I think you don’t give yourself enough credit
“Since my perceived value is rather low while approaching them on the street, being a different race, not seem fitting the ‘long term’ boyfriend archetype to brag to their friends”
A few years ago, Sinn came out with his game acceleration doctrine which declared that any one of the popular dating schools in the seduction community (mystery method, speed seduction, juggler, etc) can work if the student has the following things in order: body language, fashion, and tonality. You excel in all three. And those aren’t necessarily tactics, they are things that you developed with practice. And your hobby fits into what a lot of girls in our city consider ‘cool’. So maybe in the first 10 minutes of approach, your value is low, but the girl I’m sure is taking all of this into account as she’s sizing you up. So you score pretty good on all three of those categories AND those are value-based in my opinion.
In terms of lifestyle (looks, status, etc) all of that can be improved with time. Everybody has lifestyle flaws, including the rich and extremely handsome. But you easily score well on managing anxiety and calibration. So fuck this crap about “out of your league” and stuff. You’re better than 90% out there in terms of anxiety management and social calibration, and that’s plenty of value that a person is going to bring to any interaction. That’s why most guys fail to get consistency, anxieties and calibrating wrong.
“So fuck this crap about “out of your league” and stuff. You’re better than 90% out there in terms of anxiety management and social calibration, and that’s plenty of value that a person is going to bring to any interaction.”
I like to look at the bottom line of everything. When I say “out of my league” I am talking about her perceived value of me. This does not mean that I personally feel that way. In reality, whether I feel that way or not, it does not take away the fact that she sizes me up in a split second and decides that I do not fit the archetype or preference of the type of guy she is looking for. That being said, My perceived value would be low. Plus, I lose points for being a stranger and for pursuing her.
I know this by the level of difficulty it would take me to get women from approach to sex.
However, after I game her in the initial pickup, my value will raise if I am able to generate a romantic connection with her. Emotions=Value too. If it feels good, you can bet she will come back. Romantic Connection is the AIM within the initial pickup.
Too much honesty in this podcast! You’re putting yourself out of business, brother!
Justin, I like your analytical approach to game and IMO you undersell the power of TACTICS in this podcast. Meeting a complete stranger and building attraction + comfort while stone cold sober on the street in 10 minutes is an extremely advanced skill for the average-looking guy. And for a guy like you in America (black, average-looking) to stranger approach and lay hot young middle-class white girls would mean you’d have to rely almost entirely on TACTICS to score because you lack VALUE.
I have a buddy who’s into day game. Short, skinny, Sri Lankan, facially a 7 at best – no VALUE right? Approaches cute young white girls – gets blown out RIGHT?
Wrong – this guy kills.
Tight tactical game. Mystery Method. This guy has an incredibly tight, scripted 10-minute routine stack that he spits on EVERY girl he approaches in his day game niche environment (college campus in a college town). The beauty of his stack is that while it’s all scripted material, it hits all the major attraction + comfort points in a short period of time. He uses several classic routines to great effect – the “is kissing cheating” opener, C vs. U smile, finger length etc. – while embedding his stack with subtle DHVs, negs, cold reads, qualification, comfort material etc.
The MM routines are crack to chicks. It’s an emotional rollercoaster, a psychological mindfuck for girls. Moreover, this stuff is even more devastating during day game as he has complete control of the interaction, and (unlike in clubs) his girl isn’t distracted by cockblocks, smartphones, loud music etc. Moreover, he’s got his stack down now to a point where he doens’t worry about what he’s going to say as basically cruising on auto-pilot, and can focus on tonality and non-verbals like body language etc.
And of the hundred or so college girls my buddy has approached using smoothly delivered pre-rehearsed material over the last few months, he’s been called out…. once.
Here he is infield:
As Chris Rock put it astutely, a woman has made up her mind about whether she’ll fuck you within the first 10 minutes of meeting you. You want to maximize your utility from your approaches, get into that fuck-worthy pile, get the most bangs for the least time invested.
IMO there are 3 styles of approaches:
1. You can play a Paul Janka style numbers game, spending hours and hours approaching hundreds of women, invest minimally in the interaction, rely on model good looks as a source of VALUE, and collect lots of flaky numbers.
2. You can be the guy that invests heavily in the interaction, wastes a lot of time on one particular girl, and lands in the friend-zone – the dreaded “20 minute set to nowhere”.
3. Or you can do what my buddy does – open, deliver stack, get digits, GTFO. In <10 min. By this point you know whether she's either into you or she's not, there's no sense in wasting time prolonging the interaction. Quit while you're ahead and leave on a high note. With some tight text & phone game you will get the date.
Your rap over the first 5-10 minutes is key. This is all the more so during day game cold approaches when there's little margin for error, and the slightest hint of hesitation and awkwardness can send the girl running. And even more so for average-looking guys who can't coast on their looks as a source of VALUE. So you need TACTICS.
So going “natural” on a girl means you get 1 in 5 numbers while using scripted routines gets you 1 in 3, why not use what'll get you more lays at the of the day?
Again, my “low VALUE” buddy is killing it in his niche environment (college campus) with his Mystery Method routine stack. He’s relying entirely on TACTICS and he’s having success.
Justin, I’m interested in your thoughts on this.
To be completely fair…
I listened to these interactions and I know exactly all of those materials. It may be impressive to an outsider who does not know how to “hook” girls into a social conversation. However, I highly doubt that he is getting any lays or girlfriends with this pickup.
I’ve experimented with the classic mystery method style in day game. All it does is prolong a conversation and end on a really weak note of “maybe we can hang out one day”. It’s purely social and will warrant a shit load of flakes and no sex.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Mystery Method was designed for LOUNGES (not dance floor-based clubs). The reason why Mystery could have afforded to spend so much time talking about random things with no flirting, was because in LA Lounges, there a LOT of time and alcohol. Most of his successful interactions happened because he was talking to the girl for about 2 hours and then move her to after party since LA clubs end at 2 am. So that is like 3-4 hrs. In day game there is generally no time. Here is an example of the environment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQri22Y8HN0
So all this guy is doing the the first 10% percent of Mystery Method (since he is talking for 5 mins) and hoping to get lucky after. I know you love the idea of using routines, but routines and mystery method do not go hand in hand. Anything can be a routine. I do agree with using the RIGHT form of routines and material. However, the Mystery Method in day game is based on using routines that DO NOT go in the right direction in order to generate a romantic connection. Nowhere near it.
The routine stack that he is using is only geared towards getting a weak phone number with no true romantic or solid intention. That’s all. Sure, you will get higher amount than using natural random game, however, you will only get more numbers since the girl wants to be socially polite or she just wants a friend. Plus, in a college environment, girls will feel more obligated to give you their number if you use a ‘safe’ indirect approach because they want to avoid a socially awkward situation. I do use my own routines, however, they are geared in a totally different direction and the true success behind it is the ART form after knowing the SCIENCE behind what your doing.
And Yes, people may feel like “im so happy no one is using this anymore and i can use these lines on the new generation of girls who never heard this”. Sure, you will get more polite numbers than if you were going direct, however, it will be very hit and miss since it does NOT go in the right direction to getting a romantic connection before parting ways.
Caveat… If you go to the same college or pretend to go; it will be easier to bump into her again due low investment on her behalf to hang out with you in the cafeteria again, and from there you can slowly try to get things moving. However, this does not change the fact that the initial game form opening to number close was weak and this will not work consistently in the street/coffee shops. When I say work I mean from meet to sex.
I used to use the same exact style a very long time ago. It got me no where but very few awkward dates that did not pan out well for many of reasons to numerous to mention.
Hey Justin i am confused…what can we do about value when most of those variables cant be quickly changed or can not be shown in cold approaching as easily. I think value (outside looks fashion fitness and sometimes sterotypes) such as social status and wealth can only be effective or shown during social circle approaching.
The difference is emotional connections. This is the core to everything 🙂 This increases value and can happen in stranger approaching. That is why I go for a ROMANTIC CONNECTION. Emotions are exponentially valuable to people. So imagine if you can seed a strong emotion that she has towards you. This is possible by having a Romantic Connection.
Hey Justin I was wondering after you have closed the deal ….do some of girls assess your long term value on whether they should stay with you or does the romantic connection solidifies the long term commitment….and is it possible to create a detailed podcast on long term relationships management
Once you get the romantic connection, it’s pretty solid in terms of her deciding to stay around. However, there are factors such as… does she have a boyfriend? will she tell her parents? will her parents and close friends care if you do not fit the stereotype of guy due to race, background, anonymity, age, subculture etc.. Does she care what other people think when she is inlove?your compatibility etc…This are factors like any other situation. The good thing about getting a girlfriend this way is that the relationship created is built solely out of genuine and raw attraction for you instead of her just being with you because you are the “ideal” archetype of guy such as a millionaire. If you look at other guys that may to appear to be below woman’s league.. once she is into him, she’s into him.
I will look into doing a podcast or post on this. in the meantime, here is a similar old post HERE
Great podcast, there no doubt you have to display value, I find it that especially in the first 30 seconds the way you display your value (voice projection, body language, social intelligence etc…) is crucial to not lose girl very early into interaction and as a foundation for a more personal connection down the road.
Also I like your observation about Mystery method and routines. I remember when I just got back into game around 6 month ago I started with indirect at first, I would bring lots of social value into sets and very good vibe and would walk away with phone number 8 out of 10 times. I learned it a hard way unless she has some personal connection going with me, she would flake 100% of time, and the phone numbers; well she just did not want to be mean to a nice guy.
Being social doesn’t get you laid on a cold day game approach.
— Being social doesn’t get you laid on a cold day game approach.
I agree and would like to elaborate on this for the readers… only being SOCIAL, will not get you laid via stranger approach day game. However, being social is needed to engage the woman to be given the chance to generate more interest.
hey justin man why do you act like you aren’t that good looking man you got good style and shit you must have worked on that …..im just starting to do game properly (Daygame) what are your tips for a new guy that has just gotten past approach anxiety?
Work on your conversation skills. See how many women would talk to you without rushing to leave.
To add to what Justin Wayne said its also important to be able to hold on at least a 10 minute conversation without you being nervous or her wanting to leave.
one more thing bro i have only about 50-80 approaches under my belt if i get your book will it be pointless because i dont have enough experience to use the stuff innit? or will it still provide a beneficial effect?
it will be beneficial in every aspect of game
Hey Justin i was wondering why is that in social circles everybody sleeps with everybody and its ‘okay’ with them even if they are best friends and etc. Is that just the nature of social circles and do you recommended having sex with numerous people in a social circle or is that what you mean about the dangers of social circles
It has been said that if a group of people were stranded on an island with food, they all would eventually screw each other. This is somewhat close to certain social circles. This happens in very isolated social circles. However, there are some social circles where that us not the norm. Most social circles do not have everyone screwing each other.
These podcasts are always so good and revelatory. I cannot wait for the next one. Is their a part two coming?
i will expand upon it a bit more… Emotional value (generated from good game) vs Long Term Value ( looks, archetype, wealth)
How do u create romantic connection on tge phone
Hey Justin Wayne.
I’ve read your blog for quite some time, and this is indeed an interesting podcast. But I’m just not quite sure whether your “game” is actually what makes you results. I myself, don’t fit the white abercrombie-model archetype, but 90% of the women I had sex with were white. But I also know that they were into my “stereotype/race” in conjunction with my personality.
The media&hollywood has been very kind to black people – potraying them as cool, progressive and sexy. Especially in rap, r&b-music, movies, and sports.
But if you study these “famous” black people they are often dating within their race – even our president is married within his “race”. So a black guy would most likely have a REALLY high succesrate if he was only going after black girls, where going after non-black girls will get him more rejection. In my experience the girls outside of your race NEED to find you somewhat interesting, cool, or have a preference for “exotic” men. Heck, the majority of girls that were mostly receptive to me liked “Chris Brown” on facebook.
In my opinion, you fit a cool and sexy “stereotype” in America and in the rest of the western society… So how can you be sure, that it wasn’t just girls who were curious and wanted to see what it’s like to be with a black man? In Nancy Friday’s “My Secret Garden” there is a chapter describing some white womens fantasies about being with a black man..
Anyway.. There is also this anti-community “movement” or “genre” – guys like 60years of challenge, Aaron Sleazy, and Goodlookingloser. The emphasis on this genre of “pick-up” relies heavily on screening girls for their sexual avaibility to see if they are down to fuck. The practical tool being: aggressive “game”, physical escalation… and weeding out the non-sexual girls.
What is your take on this style of “game”? & dont you think you could have sex with a lot of attractive women doing this?
sorry for the late reply, didn’t see it until now.
“In my opinion, you fit a cool and sexy “stereotype” in America and in the rest of the western society… So how can you be sure, that it wasn’t just girls who were curious and wanted to see what it’s like to be with a black man? In Nancy Friday’s “My Secret Garden” there is a chapter describing some white womens fantasies about being with a black man..”
-That’s only a niche of women. I’ve interviewed many of them after sex and they would tell me things like ‘ wow, i never thought i’d sleep with a black guy, no disrespect Justin”
Sure, some girls do not care as much either.
“There is also this anti-community “movement” or “genre” – guys like 60years of challenge, Aaron Sleazy, and Goodlookingloser. The emphasis on this genre of “pick-up” relies heavily on screening girls for their sexual availability to see if they are down to fuck. The practical tool being: aggressive “game”, physical escalation… and weeding out the non-sexual girls.”
– Here’s the thing about screening. It depends on how satisfied you are with the success rate and quality of you screening. If it satisfies your desires, fine. However, for guys who do not get the type of girls they desire when using screening methods, something else has to be done… the problem with 60 years of challenge is that it is mainly for night game where girls are generally more open to some fast fun. In daygame, you are walking a tighter rope.
Justin Wayne! You’re my life saver! You have saved me from hellish and endless numbers game! I absolutely agree with your so-called Romantic Connection.
Can you give some advice for some phone and text game? I just got a chick’s number, and we were definitely vibing. The interaction was short and sweet like you said. How do a follow up? Thanks. your the shit dude
just tell her you wan to hang out… its that simple.. it is not about “gaming” her on the phone. The purpose of game is to have her interested in you within the initial face to face interaction.
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